Category: information

what our compromised DOH officials are not telling us: that papaya leaf extract can #BeatDengue

read Papaya Extract to Treat Dengue: A Novel Therapeutic Option? authored in may 2014 by N. Sarala and SS Paknikar of the Department of Pharmacology, Sri Devaraj Urs Medical Colledge, Sri Devarag Urs Academy of Higher Education and Research, Tamaka, Kolar, Kamataka, India.

read  Carica papaya Leaves Juice Significantly Accelerates the Rate of Increase in Platelet Count among Patients with Dengue Fever and Dengue Haemorrhagic Fever, published in the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) website also back in may 2014.

and read Papaya leaves can beat dengue published in a Sri Lanka news website April 26, 2016 (some 3 weeks after DOH’s garin launched the dengvaxia mass vaccination program).  a rare interview with Dr. Sanath Hettige, the Sri Lankan general physician who first pronounced papaya leaf extract as effective therapy vs. dengue in a paper published in 2008 in the Sri Lankan Journal of Family Physicians.

I used to observe monkeys eating papaya leaves. I conducted research on papaya leaves and found that papaya leaves had been used by aborigines to treat malaria. At the time there were no suggestions that papaya leaves were a remedy for dengue, but as monkeys consumed it, we knew it wasn’t toxic. Four of my employees and myself consumed papaya leaves and another five did not. Then we took blood tests and found that the platelet count, white blood cells count (WBC) and the red blood cell count (RBC) of even healthy individuals had increased. Meanwhile, my clerk contracted dengue when his platelet count dropped to 70 000. As one who had participated in papaya leaves trial before [he] insisted in taking papaya leaf syrup. Within 2 days his platelet count increased dramatically and the fever receded. He recovered without been admission to a hospital

Some three wheel drivers of the Watthegedara area close to my clinic my clerk was friendly with also took papaya leaf syrup when they contracted dengue and were cured, proving the efficacy of papaya leaves in treating dengue. It was then that I decided to conduct scientific research on the papaya leaf treatment. 12 patients who came to my clinic voluntarily agreed to take papaya leaves and then take blood tests when it was found that their platelet count and WBC counts had increased with improvement of their overall medical condition. So, papaya leaves not only increase the platelet count but helps to increase WBC counts and reduce fever and the duration of the illness simultaneously. This is where a lot of people misunderstood my first article. There is no isolated increase of the platelet count; we monitor the improvement through the platelet count alone.

Q  And then?

When you conduct research, there are 3 stages: First you conduct experiments using rats, then the experiment is done on human beings followed by a control experiment where we give the syrup to some and not give it to others in the experiment. The rat experiment was done in other countries after my human experiment. In late 2009 I wanted to conduct a randomised control clinical experiment. I needed approval from ethical clearance committees such as the unit at the Sri Lanka Medical Association to conduct the control trial. If they approve it, they have to take the responsibility in case something happens to the patient. In 2009 the ethical clearance unit at the Sri Lanka Medical Association did not permit me to conduct the experiment because they were not convinced [of its safety and efficacy]. They wanted me to bring evidence from Ayurveda literature and show that papaya leaves has been prescribed as a remedy.

A control experiment was conducted in Malaysia before I got the opportunity. In 2013 I applied again highlighting that Malaysia had conducted the experiment. Thereafter, the ethical clearance committee of the Sri Jayawardene University approved my application.

If the platelet count increases despite the fact that the patient’s condition(fever etc) was not improving, it becomes a complication to the physician. This is where my control experiment played a major role as it was able to clear the previous misconception that papaya leaves only increases the platelet count. As part of the experiment we reached patients who had not yet reached the critical stage warded at the Kalubowila Hospital. We divided them into two groups and checked them to ascertain how many had reached the critical phase and how many had not in the two groups. We examined the thorax of all the patients daily and found that only two patients from the treated group had fluid in their lungs compared to ten in the untreated group. We also saw that the duration of fever was reduced by 50% and the hospital stay reduced by one day. It was not only the platelet count increase we observed but also in a reduction in the conversion of dengue patients to the dengue hemorrhagic stage. The results of this study will be published soon.

Q Are there any side effects in this treatment?

The syrup (papaya leaf extract) can also be taken in the form of a capsule which contains only pure papaya leaf extract. There are no side effects. The only problem is the bitter taste in the syrup. However, patients must take the medicine in the first spike of fever, and they must take it regularly to obtain optimum results.

Q  Why are doctors reluctant to use the papaya leaf medicine on dengue patients?

The papaya leaf syrup is a herbal medicine and therefore not categorized as an allopathic drug (as in western/modern medicine) and doctors usually refrain from using herbal medicine on patients. However, this is the first time in Sri Lanka a herbal medicine which is not allopathic was used in a clinical trial in a tertiary care hospital for a potentially serious illness. Clinical trials are rarely conducted in herbal medicine.

Q  What was the response from the international community?

After my research was published in Lankapuwath, it received international acclaim even from BBC and CNN. BBC correspondent Chris Howell visited my lab and did a documentary. As a result the research results spread and people from around the world started using it as a remedy. In many countries it was found to be effective and as consequently there was research conducted in India, Pakistan, Malaysia and even in the University of Florida. We have more than 20 research projects conducted worldwide with regard to this subject. Articles on the preparation of the papaya leaf medicine and its effectiveness have been discussed in length in the British Medical Journal.

The institute of medical research Malaysia encourages and recommends the use of papaya leaf syrup. They even have a video on their website, where they present how the juice is prepared. It should also be noted that this is the first time in the world history that a herbal medicine is being promoted by the government Medical Research Institute.

Q  What advice would you give dengue patients?

Dengue is  potentially a serious illness. You must consult your doctor immediately if there are signs of fever, headache and body pain, you can request for an NS1 antigen test. Through this test you can diagnose dengue on the very first day of the illness. If results are positive you can take papaya leaf syrup, in addition to usual dengue management. Papaya leaf syrup should be taken as early as possible, preferably at the first spike of fever and continued until the patient has recovered fully. Papaya leaf is only a supportive treatment and is mandatory  that you take advice and treatment from an allopathic doctor or from a government hospital. You should not take any type of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen, mefenamic acid or diclofinac sodium for fever or body pain.

nakakapagpatanong.  bakit walang pinoy doctors na klaseng Dr. Sanath Hettige?  lahat ba sila ay nasa bulsa na ng big pharma?  o colonial mentality pa ba rin iyan:  iniismiran ang mga  halamang gamot, tiklop-tuhod sa branded western medicines.

imposibleng hindi nagbabasa ng medical / health journals ang ating health professionals, in  and out of government.  imposibleng walang natitisod sa numerous papers published in international medical and health journals re the papaya leaf exract as mabisang panlaban sa dengue fever.

i imagine that there must be a huge pharma lobby against any acknowledgement of the papaya leaf extract, especially from those engaged in the expensive race to come up with a safe and efficacious dengue vaccine.  because, you know, there would be no patenting the papaya leaf extract, we have papaya trees everywhere, no money in it for big pharma when the extract can be prepared at home with a mortar-and-pestle or juicer or blender.

imagine if our DOH officials were not compromised and were to share the information instead, and even collaborate, with small-and-medium entrepreneurs across the archipelago.  like sri lanka, we would have capsules and tabs and syrups and mosquito sprays available in health centers and town boticas.  what a boon that would be, especially in this post-dengvaxia times.

EXTRACTING / PREPARING KATAS NG DAHON NG PAPAYA IN YOUR KUSINA

get your hands on fresh leaves, sariwang dahon — piliin yung “healthy and mature” although may nagsasabing mabisa rin yung murà, na madilaw-dilaw pa ang itsura.

kung may time at internet, i-google  ang “dengue, papaya leaf extract” — basically the process involves reducing papaya leaves to mush and then making pigâ to get the katas.    nagkakaiba-iba lang sa pagpapa-inom nito at sa “dosage.”  https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=3nVQL9t7kns

ang mahalaga:  PAPAYA LEAF EXTRACT IS SAFE.  WALANG UNWELCOME SIDE EFFECTS, DENGUE FEVER OR NOT.

A.  hugasang mabuti sa tubig-gripo (running water) ang mga dahon.  tadtarin ang dahon (chop into small pieces).  ilagay ang 50 grams o 1/4 cup ng tadtad na dahon sa dikdikan (mortar and pestle); dagdagan ng 50 cc. ng pinakuluan at pinalamig na tubig (mga 3.3 measuring spoons) at 25 gms. na asukal (mga 6 na kutsarita).  dikdikin nang 15 to 30 minutes hanggang maging sapal (pulp) ang mixture.  pigain nang kamay at ipunin ang katas sa isang malinis na lalagyan.  uminom ng 30 cc (2 tablespoons) tatlong beses isang araw for adults, 5-10 cc (1 to 2 teaspoons) for children tatlong beses isang araw, until recovery o hanggang mawala ang lagnat.  dahil mapait ang lasa, puwedeng uminom ng malamig na tubig, pakonti-konti, pagkainom ng katas ng dahon ng papaya. puwede ring i-store ang katas sa refrigerator ng 24 hours.

B.  use 10 fresh papaya leaves — isang dahon ay tinatayang magbibigay ng isang kutsarang leaf juice.  hugasan. tanggalin ang mga ugat ng dahon bago tadtarin.   ilagay sa blender ang tadtad na dahon, dagdagan ng sapat na tubig to make a liquid paste (malapot na likido).  salain ang likido at itapon ang sapal.  uminom ng 2 kutsara ng leaf juice tuwing tatlong (3) oras over 2-3 days, or for one week, if symptoms persist.

C.  piliin ang ilang dahong di gaanong malaki (medium-size).  tanggalin ang gitnang ugat.  tadtarin ang mga dahon. ilagay sa kaserola na may 2 liters of water (mga 8 and 1/2 cups).  pag kumukulo na ay hinaan ang apoy, pero patulogy ang mahinang kulo (simmer) hanggang mangalahati ang likido.  salain ito at ilagay sa mga boteng maytakip.  dagdagan ng asukal kung ibig.  uminon ng kalahating baso tuwing anim (6) na oras.  puwedeng i-store hanggang limang araw, pero mas sariwa, mas mabuti.

D.  puwede ring gumamit ng juicer.  hugasan muna ang mga dahon.  itabi sa fridge ang juice. inumin sa loob ng apat o limang araw.

E.  puwede ring gumamit ng blender.  tadtarin ang sampung dahon at ilagay sa blender with a cup (isang tasa) ng drinking water.  blend.  salain ang juice sa pamamagitan ng cheese cloth o katsa.  uminom ng isang kutsara one to two times daily.

kung wala kayong puno ng papaya sa bakuran, alamin kung saan, sino ang mayroon, yung fruit-bearing o namumunga.  check out your neighborhood, now na.  and spread the word.  #BeatDengue

“press freedom” for what? “press freedom” for whom?

of course i’m all for press freedom, and SEC’s move to “shut down” rappler is dismaying, smacking of resbak at the news site’s anti-duterte stance.  but it’s also discombobulating (if kind of reassuring) that SEC makes an issue of, and takes selective action against, foreign funding of media, which is bawal sa constitution but which duterte’s supermajority in the LOWER house of congress seeks to allow via con-ass / chacha (correct me if i’m wrong).

let’s remind ourselves WHY the constitution bans foreign funding / ownership of media.  read cielito habito’s Fear of foreigners.

Our Constitution completely bars foreign ownership on mass media, while limiting it to 40 percent for public utilities and educational institutions, and 30 percent for advertising. …The common thread among these restrictions is the apparent intent of our charter framers to “protect” Filipinos from being “brainwashed” by foreigners.

but, habito says, that’s for an era long gone:

… vast changes in technology and economic realities have rendered most of those constitutional restrictions obsolete, irrelevant, or even counterproductive. … In this age of information and communication technology and social media, there’s no longer any point to the nationality restriction on mass media, as well as on advertising and education.

What it does is to deprive us of opportunities to attract investments that could bring in capital, jobs and improved technology. Foreign media firms like BBC, CNN, Al Jazeera, CNBC and the like could possibly set up a base hub here to draw on certain strengths we have to offer, including in the generation of content with our relative superiority in language and artistic skills. After all, all mass media broadcasting locally, whether Filipino or foreign-owned, are subject to the same inherent power of the government to regulate content and business practices for the common good.

… For a country whose people have made us a “borderless nation” spread all across foreign lands, our seemingly inordinate fear of foreigners sounds rather misplaced.

hmm.  CNNph has been downsizing and, we hear, won’t be around much longer.  and time was when our superiority in english speaking and writing was not “relative” but absolute.  times have changed, indeed, under globalization, but not for the better as far as this always-developing-never-developed third world country of ours is concerned.

here’s a nugget from the comment thread compliments of  !OjO!@hastalavictoriasiempre_ole  

A timely piece indeed, Ciel.

Since you bring up the fear of foreigners, our Japanese friends at JICA often point out that Japan would have ended up like the Philippines had they allowed foreign missionaries, Dominicans and Jesuits alike to infiltrate and destroy their country from Nagasaki inwards. Today, there’s no debate that religion was used as the weapon of choice by our Spanish colonial masters in indoctrinating, conquering and subjugating us. The Japanese were right to persecute the European missionaries who were supplying weapons to various feuding daimyos in order to create internecine wars within Japan, ultimately hoping to pave the way for Europeans to pick Japan apart. Lorenzo Ruiz was just some fictional character unwittingly brought to Japan by the pale devils. Japan was the first country in Asia to industrialize because they had the entire Tokugawa period for nation-building, achieving the westphalian notion of nation-state ahead of everybody else. Had Japan fallen prey to Europeans earlier on, there’s reason to believe that Japan would have been infused with iberian indolence.

Fast forward to the mid-1990s. My son brought two Korean teenage kids home one day, after his teacher requested help with their month-long English immersion program. While waiting for pizza, I offered to play some American movies, expecting they’d choose Independence Day or ID4 in laser disc over the other movies in VHS. To my surprise, both kids with limited English, blurted “American propaganda” almost in unison. As it turned out, Korean students as early as grade school are already taught about the subliminal propaganda employed in Hollywood movies. This is the reason why Korea for a long time had very strict regulations about the entry of foreign cultural products. While they do allow Hollywood movies, Koreans are taught to discern between fact and fiction. And since Korea has distilled the secrets of Hollywood entertainment from propaganda, they were able to use the same secret formula in coming up with their own cultural exports now known as K-wave. One is easily reminded of how easily K-drama easily displaced those latin american telenovelas early in the previous decade. Without a strong core and a strong indigenous Korean culture, coupled with discerning eyes, Korea could have been swamped and inundated by the shortlived J-Pop in those days.

Globalization has brought many benefits, but there’s still no place like home. A weak home country like ours will put us at the losing end of globalization. A weak home country like ours can be easily deluged and overwhelmed by malware and malicious foreign média like Rappler. In terms of nation-building, we are still far behind Vietnam.

so.  press freedom for what nga ba?  for nation-building dapat, yes?  instead, press freedom hereabouts is deployed in the service of vested / capitalist interests (the rich) that rarely, if ever, coincide with the interests of the impoverished masses (the poor).  despite a “free press” since EDSA, the masses continue to be woefully uninformed on important social, political, and economic issues and, therefore, ill-equipped to demand wiser policies and better services of the leaders they elect.

so.  when sal panelo admits that most filipinos don’t understand what the constitution is all about, much less the proposed alternatives, who is to blame for the ignorance?  when most pinoys don’t understand why the president is pushing for BBL or why the lower house ignores him, whose fault is it?  when we don’t understand what senator legarda means when she says that the country has so much money and why none of it trickles down to the larger population and why the masses live such miserable lives, why do we blame only “the educational system” but not mass media for the mass ignorance?

i could go on and on, but let me end with this:  when most pinoys have no idea that in cases of dengue, papaya leaf juice is effective in keeping blood platelet count up (thereby preventing damage to walls of blood vessels, therefore no hemorrhaging) or that it has long been used to stop dengue in its tracks in sri lanka, malaysia, indonesia where they also have locally produced mosquito sprays made of papaya leaf extract as well as capsules and tinctures, what does it say about our DOH and medical professionals — that they all, or their relatives, are in the pay of multinational pharmaceutical giants like sanofi of dengvaxia fame?  obviously there is no money in papaya leaf extract, too many papaya trees everywhere.  but what does it say of our mainstream media — print and broadcast and online — when none of them have the time or inclination to do some research (google it, guys!) and call out the DOH, sabay share such precious info with the public.  perhaps they, too, or their relatives, are in the pay of giant pharmaceuticals? or maybe they’re just plain fanatical about branded western medicine?

so.  really.  when rappler’s ressa says she sought foreign funding “to keep the group free of potential vested interests” she means, i suppose, local oligarchs and political bigshots, pero okay lang ang vested interests ng global oligarchs and multinational bigshots?  i wonder if the same attitude obtains in other media outfits like gma 7, abs-cbn, vera files, pcij, and cmfr that are, like rappler i hear, mostly foreign-funded.

so much for “press freedom.”

revolutionary government, by hook or by crook?

MANILA – President Rodrigo Duterte on Thursday advised his critics to unite and form one group … his latest call to dissenters as allies and supporters accused them anew of destabilization efforts.

“I would be happy, really, if they will start to merge into one command. Itong mga Komunista at itong Liberal (Party), at itong mga iba na gustong paalisin ako, mag-isa isa na lang kayo,” he said in a speech in Malacañang.

… “Isang grupo. I think you share the same ideological whatever. Para hindi na masyadong magkalat ang ano… we can focus on all of you,” Duterte said.

the next day, this.

Pag ang destabilization ninyo patagilid na and medyo magulo na (If your destabilization is worsening and it is becoming chaotic), I will not hesitate to declare a revolutionary government until the end of my term, and I will arrest all of you and we can go to a full scale war against the Reds,” [Duterte] said in an interview with Erwin Tulfo aired over PTV Friday night.

Mag-declare ako ng revolutionary government, period. And I will declare — I will clear the streets and I will declare all government positions vacant.
Mas matuloy, wala na akong problema kasi habulin ko na ngayon ‘yung mga corrupt para matanggal ko. Sige, mag-demonstrate kayo, bring it to a point na talagang tatagilid ‘yung gobyerno.”

am i so out of the loop that i haven’t heard of, or feel, moves to destablize the duterte government in aid of ousting him?  meron ba talagang gumagana na destabilization plots ang mga dilawan at / o ang mga pula?

ang pakiramdam ko nga, parang ang presidente mismo at ang kanyang sobrang matitinik na social media forces ang nangde-destabilize, nanggagalit, nanguudyok, nananadya, practically, literally, goading us into rising up in anger at all the lying and killing.

parang they would like nothing better than to provoke us into what he tagged “EDSA terrorism” (correct me if i heard wrong) which would give him reason, excuse, pretext to declare a revolutionary government.  parang si marcos noong 1972 — kinailangan munang ma-ambush si enrile before marcos dared sign proclamation 1081.

but the similarity ends there.  for what he wants to do 60 days of martial law would not suffice, so duterte’s being creative.  if you’re on facebook, read jose alejandrino’s primer on rev powers that is making the rounds.

once duterte finds an excuse to abrogate the constitution, he will next do a cory instead, declare a revolutionary government, rule by executive decree, change the constitution to provide for federalism atbp., hold a plebiscite in may 2018, the people vote yes, and the shift to federalism happens, i can’t imagine how, though i can imagine da who.

i also imagine that the duterte constitution has already been crafted, naghihintay na lang ng tamang panahon.  so bakit ba sobrang nagmamadali?  i think it has to do with mindanao.  i think nangako siya sa MI at sa MN and he’s being held to that promise or else there will be more war.  kung ma-approve nga ang bagong constitution in may 2018, then by may 2019 we would be voting in “new” officials to regional governments and to some kind of parliament.  and that would be the end of the revo government daw.

rep edcel lagman insists that there are no destabilization plots or serious threats from the left and political opposition. 

He also said that establishing a revolutionary government has no constitutional basis.

“A revolutionary government is the result of a successful people’s uprising or revolt overthrowing an incumbent President and his subalterns like the EDSA People Power revolution,” he said.

He added: “It is not a product of a self-serving declaration of a sitting President ostensibly to retain and prolong the exercise of powers and “crush” perceived enemies of the state.”

but there are ways and ways of spinning the cory “precedent” to make it seem like this is a similar moment for duterte given how radical his federalism agenda, and how great, allegedly, it would be for country.  at matagal na niya itong sinasabi.  read chit pedrosa’s Federalism is the answer.

In his speech after being proclaimed the standard-bearer of PDP-Laban political party, Duterte said he has no ambition to run for president, but decided to do so when his political party’s leaders urged him to run and push for federalism.

“Kinausap ako to carry the torch of federalism,” Duterte said. “I will build a nationwide consensus for federalism.”

a nationwide consensus would be good.  i’m against federalism but i’m open to being overruled by the majority — an informed majority, of course.  kung ibig talaga ng presidente na ituloy ang may 2018 plebiscite, may panahon pang pag-usapan ito nang masinsinan.  sana may information campaign on what that new constitution would be like, and what federalism coupled with economic liberalization would mean for the impoverished masses and the oppressed middle class, in aid of public discussions in the run-up to a plebiscite.  ‘wag naman tayo masyadong biglain.

meanwhile the political oppositions can only warn against a dictatorship, not about what the president thinks he needs dictatorial powers for.  in denial ba sila about the president’s agenda?  o baka naman okay sa kanila ang charter change at federalism?  it’s time to have this conversation, folks.

 

waiting for cocoy, what about sotto, calling out grace

sometime during the senate hearing on fake news by the committee on public info and mass media last wednesday, i said on my facebook wall that i found the talk refreshing, it was good to see and hear edwin lacierda, abigail valte, and manolo quezon, nakaka-miss ang intelligent discourse. (public status. 13 likes.)  we kinda took it for granted back in pre-duterte days.

not that the trio said much, except to deny that they were responsible in any way for the anonymous dilawan blog silent no more or that its webmaster was once part of pNoy’s comms team — though cocoy dayao wasn’t around to confirm the denial, so correct me if i heard wrong — and to demand that rj nieto prove his allegations, produce evidence, that mar roxas was responsible for the nasaan-ang-pangulo anti-pNoy campaign in the time of mamasapano.  nag-buckle lang si lacierda on the question of whether he is part (or something like that) of silent no more, and justifiably, because does one become a part of silent no more when one “likes” and / or shares the link of any of its blog posts on facebook?

smart of cocoy dayao not to show up.  but he should show up next time or he might have to go into hiding and then be tracked down by the cops a la ronnie dayan, ewww.  that would be so uncool.  cool would be if he came to the next hearing with bells and whistles, including a hotshot IT lawyer.  i expect that he would refuse (even in an executive session) to name his clients, i.e., the writer/s and / or owners of silent no more (and other anonymous blogs under his admin) on grounds of confidentiality.  it would be a test case on a citizen’s right to anonymity and privacy.

it would be interesting to see how sotto, and other feeling-aggrieved senators, will deal with that.  sotto, in particular, who was tagged a rapist in the controversial seven-sens post (6,600 likes, 2066 shares, 780 comments) has reason to cry LIBEL!  but then that would mean opening himself up to questions re the pepsi paloma rape case back in 1982.  under oath he would be crazy to insist that no rape happened as he has claimed in recent years.  the rape hit the front pages just 35 years ago.  marami kaming adults na noon na buhay pa ngayon, and we remember what a scandal it was, and we still marvel at how they managed to get away with it, dared brazen it out, the show must go on, eat bulaga!  no fake news that.

and because dayao was a no-show, napagtuunan tuloy ng oras at pansin at puna si mocha uson, duterte’s social media muse (5 million followers), at si rj nieto aka thinking pinoy (700K followers) who is second only to mocha when it comes to bashing dilawans and others critical of duterte, imagining scenarios based on iffy data, yet whom committee chair grace poe couldn’t praise enough for his “neutrality” and “excellent research,” never mind the times that nieto has had to issue “errata” dahil nagkamali, tao lang daw.  argh.  i’ve been blogging 10 years now and i don’t remember ever having to issue an erratum.

anyway, the next morning, on my fb newsfeed, a u.p. prof was wishing for the likes of recto, laurel, salonga and santiago in the chamber; the discourse would have been so radically different daw. (for fb friends only. 142 likes and counting.)  hmm.  miriam too?  “I lied!” was one of her favorite punchlines.

pero recto, laurel, salonga, oo naman, except what’s the point in wishing for better, based on a romanticized past, when there’s work to do confronting what is, now, and looking to the future.  roby alampay, tony la viña, and florin hilbay were outstanding.

as for senator poe, she can redeem herself by pushing through with the committee’s promise to plug legal loopholes that allow bloggers earning undeclared income from advertisements to avoid payment of taxes.  and senator nancy binay is right, tax also the so-called “influencers” promoting products and services on their social media accounts, said to be an underground billion (peso) industry.  better late than never.